Doxas Dialos: Episode 003 - Is Modern Worship Musical Mush?
Once again Dave, Jeff, and Jon come together to discuss relevant issues in the world of Worship Music and have some fun along the way. Shout outs go to Liz, Executive Man Brand, Steve Garrett, Pastor Dave, and Something like Silas. They also take some time to sample some of the hottest Gospel Music coming out of South Africa with the Soweto Gospel Choir. Finally, they tackle Chuck Colson’s indictment against modern Worship music that he claims is nothing more then musical mush. It gets pretty heated but all sides come together in the end to agree on some fundamental truths about Worship music.Download Episode 003 (.mp3)
"Draw Me Close to You" IS a simplistic song, but it and songs like it do have their place in worship. Let me use an analogy. I have had wonderful, deep, intellectual talks with my wife and have come out of them knowing more of her and with a renewed appreciation for her. On occasion, I have labored for hours on poems that I have written for her. But sometimes, when I get home at the end of a rough day, I simply say "hi" to my wife and hug her for several minutes in silence. I'm drawing comfort, strength, and love from her. I am telling her that I need her. Put God in place of my wife, and that sounds like a form of worship to me. "God, I love you and need what only you can provide." Or simply, "God, I need a hug." That's the message of "Draw Me Close".
At the same time, if I only hugged her and left out the deeper or more intellectual moments with my wife, my relationship with her could never be all God intended for us as a couple. Balance. It's all about balance.
While I have really enjoyed listening to Episodes 000 through 002, I have to say that I found 003 frustrating to listen to.
First, I thought it was disrespectful and childish to refer (repeatedly) to Chuck Colson as "Chucky". You guys have talked about humility in worship leaders. The "Chucky" comments were arrogant and condescending. It's fine that you don't agree with him. I don't either. But that's no reason to behave in that way.
Second, please, please, PLEASE stop all talking at once. There were nearly constant interruptions. It also seemed that, for more than 40 of the 69 minutes, at least two people were speaking at once. Let the other person finish his point before jumping in to make yours or to defend yourself against his point. You guys make many good points when you're allowed to finish them. Listen to one another without being so worried about making sure you get all your comments in.
Before getting fully through the last 10+ minutes of mostly dead air at the end of the podcast, I’d closed my comment in this way: “That said, I’m still looking forward to listening to Episode 004 when it’s posted.” However, I found the final 53 seconds glib, immature, and very inappropriate for a Christian ministry. I’m all for informality and banter, but you still need to maintain some level of professionalism and propriety.
Dear Mr. Baker,
Thanks for listening to the podcast, and thanks for taking the time to comment.
First off, let me address the issue of the last 53 seconds of the podcast...
I edit the show after we are finished, and it was my full intention and action to make sure that Dave's slip of the tongue wasn't in the final version. However, when I exported the file from my audio editing software, I must have forgotten to switch the setting from "Export Complete Project" to "Export Marked Range." So, through my mistake, it ended up tagged onto the end of the podcast. It was inadvertent, and I apologize for my mistake. (I'll leave it to Dave to apologize for his language.)
;-)
Second, allow me to say that I agree with your statements about "Draw Me Close" and similar songs. You said, "Balance. It's all about balance." Often, when the three of us are discussing some controversial issue, it seems that exact phrase is a foregone conclusion.
I felt, for the purposes of this podcast, that it was important someone play "Devil's Advocate" (not implying that Mr. Colson is the devil, of course, just using the phrase). It seemed that if we all just agreed that modern worship is great (which we do), that the conversation would be slightly pointless. So I brought up some points that I've heard bandied about for the sake of discussion. But I think your analogy of your relationship with your wife is a perfect example of that balance (and perhaps the aptness of that relationship is why the Bible so often refers to the relationship of Christ to the church as a man to his bride.)
I can't recall if I said "Chuckie" or not (although I must confess I find it kind of amusing.) I think the phrase came from the original title of the blog post we were talking about, "Chuck no Likie Kelly." For some reason I think I had in my head that it was "Chuckie no Likie Kelly," but that would be mistaken.
However, you are correct that we should be more respectful.
As far as the interruptions and chaos that sometimes exist, thank you for bringing it to our attention. None of us are radio professionals (or, really, professionals at anything [joke]), so we're feeling our way through this find what works best. I can't stand dead air, so perhaps we have over compensated by talking over top of each other.
Another issue is that Dave, Jeff, and I go way back. Dave and I came up in youth group together under Jeff, and Jeff and I work together currently. So, maybe familiarity doesn't exactly breed contempt in this case, but it certainly does breed interruptions. So, please again accept my apologies, and it's something I will work harder to keep in mind for future episodes.
Please tune in for episode 004, we're talking about worship in the emerging church and we had a great conversation.
Thanks again for sharing your thoughts with us.
Mr. Baker,
First let me apologize to both you , Mr. Colson, and whoever else found my words offensive. Believe me when I say that it was not my intention to offend or belittle. Listening back over the Podcast I realize that I was being emotional and or defensive.
I feel that I was reacting with the same belittleing and disrespect that was shown to modern Worship artists and leaders with more of the same (an eye for an eye), which is obviously not Christ like. For that I apologize.
In the end I hope Mr. Colson is able to look beyond the imature 'name calling' and see a legitimate defense of Modern Worship music and take to heart that his words of accusation and inference are not Biblically justified.
Thank you for your comments and know that your suggestions and corrections have been taken to heart. Looking forward to hearing from you again.
Your brother in Christ
Dave
p.s.
Please disregard the passing mention of 'Chuckie' in the next episode of Doxas Dialos, we recorded it before we recieved your e-mail.
Guys, thank you for your replies. Jon, I appreciate your explanation of the "53 seconds" issue. Unfortunately, I'm still not immune to profanity either, especially when I lose my temper. To me, the way it was in the podcast--the 9 minutes of dead air before it, the really low volume, and the comment about "you should put this at the end of the podcast"--made it seem to me that you were trying to get away with playing a prank. That was what bothered me.
My comments about "Draw Me Close" were primarily to express my thoughts on the topic rather than to be a commentary on anything you guys said. When I first heard Chuck Colson's "Musical Mush" BreakPoint broadcast, I actually agreed with him. But I came to realize that my agreement was just a backlash against the "modern = meaningful" mindset at my church. The contemporary service has crept into the traditional services such that the only difference between the two types is a hymn or two in the traditional service. The "praise band" plays in all three services now. On further reflection, I saw that Mr. Colson's viewpoint was simply the other extreme to what I'm experiencing at my church.
I can understand the familiarity issues that you experience in doing the podcast together. I've encountered that myself in the past. You're with friends and can easily switch to interacting too much as friends, instead of as ministry leaders. I like the camaraderie. You just need to make sure that it doesn't get out of hand in the podcast and become a hindrance to what you're trying to do.
Dave, I also understand being passionate in your defense of something, and it can be tempting to attack in kind. Unfortunately, I've never found that it helps me win arguments. As good as it can feel, it just pulls me down to the other person's level.
Please know that, while rather strongly worded, my criticisms were meant to be constructive. (The end of the podcast was a different issue, but you've explained that.) I have a great appreciation for what you guys are trying to do through Doxas.